September 29, 2012; Iowa City, IA, USA; Iowa Hawkeye mascot Herkey The Hawk is carried up the student section during the game with the Minnesota Golden Gophers at Kinnick Stadium. Mandatory Credit: Reese Strickland-US PRESSWIRE

Penn State Football: Seven Reasons to Hate Iowa

In most cases, I give a quick couple of sentences here about giving you help rooting against the upcoming opponent. Let’s not pretend that you need any reasons this week. Let’s look at the ones that are already on the table…and poke some fun.

The Hawkeye is a Pest. 

Literally. It says so right HERE…kind of. The words “Hawkeye”, “pest” and “bird” are all there! Which actually brings great logic to the fact that Iowa is the “Hawkeye State.” Doesn’t is all make so much more sense now???

Hayden Fry: Most Overrated Coach in History

At some point Saturday, the announcers will make a statement about “legendary coach Hayden Fry.” Not to disrespect an old guy, but in 21 years at  the helm, coach Fry averaged less than 7 wins per year. That’s what you wanna hang your hat on? The Pest Birds named their athletic facility after a guy who was just barely bowl-eligible, on average. Awesome.
Iowa Fans Don’t Believe in Logic.

After some Pest fans got ahold of my 31-6 prediction, they came at me on Twitter with loads of useless knowledge. They wanted to make sure that I knew about the 2004 game and how Penn State hasn’t won at Kinnick since 1999. They wanted to make sure that I was aware of Jerry Sandusky and this guy, one of my personal favorites:

Rather than argue WHY Iowa might beat Penn State, they went with “timtrLOLlleyvbr.” Iowa sucks at offense. Arguably their best offensive threat will be limited, if not out on Saturday. Their quarterback has 2 touchdowns and 3 interceptions on the year. They scored 3 points against Penn State last year and this offense isn’t as good. Saying they’ll score 6 might be generous on my part. Rather than tell me why any of that isn’t rational, I get

Thanks for playing, dummy. One knucklehead even tweeted the link to the predictions to coach Ferentz with the heading BULLETIN BOARD MATERIAL, as though that will make the team play better. Look, if losing to Central Michigan wasn’t enough to motivate this team, there’s nothing that I can do to help.

Iowa: Another “Little Brother”

As if it’s not bad enough that we had to sit through games against the 2nd best team in Ohio (Ohio), the 3rd best team in Illinois (Illinois) and the worst team in the state of Pennsylvania and Big East (Temple), now we get to watch the second (maybe third- I see you Iowa Western CC) best team in IOWA? By losing to Iowa State, the perennial doormat of the Big 12, Iowa secured their spot as the worst football team in the worst football state in the country.

November 8, 2008

Penn State was ranked #3 fresh off of a bye week that followed a win over a top 5 Ohio State team. Penn State was staring a potential undefeated season right in the face. Trailing 23-14 when the fourth quarter started, Iowa scored 10 unanswered points including the game-winning field goal by Daniel Murray in the final seconds. Murray made just 6 of 9 field goals that year and was 32 of 62 on his career. Penn State went on to win the rest of their regular season games, before losing in the Rose Bowl. Iowa, as usual, didn’t matter.

September 26, 2009

“Revenge Day.”#5 Penn State at home, at night, in front of a whiteout. After 2008, this would be the day that Penn State would exact (not extract, apparently) revenge. On their first play from scrimmage, Penn State scored a touchdown and the crowd assumed they were setting the tone. However, that would be the Nittany Lions’ last touchdown of the day. Iowa dominated in the trenches and Penn State turned the ball over time and time again. The Hawkeyes would score 16 points in the 4th and win 21-10. Penn State would only lose one more time that season. Iowa still didn’t matter.
February, 2009

Muscatine, Iowa is just west of the Mississippi river. It’s part of, or near something that’s called the Quad City or Quad Cities or some junk. The Quad City? is actually comprised of four small craphole towns that are near enough to one another that a shopping plaza is necessary. I spent a week there for work, in the middle of winter. The temperature hovered around 8 degrees for the week and the wind whipped off the Rockies straight through town because there’s NOTHING between the river and Montana. At one point that week, I took the company car to Walmart to walk around. Yeah, that’s my experience with Iowa. I spent a week away from my family, drinking at a hotel bar and humoring myself with laps at the local Walmart because that’s what there is to do there. More so than any football game, that week is why I hate Iowa.

If you need more reasons, check out WHY IOWA SUCKS over at Onward State.
For all of the latest on the Penn State Nittany Lions or to harass somebody about a game in 2004, follow VBR Lead Editor Tim Tolley on Twitter.


Dick's Sporting Goods presents "Hell Week":

Tags: Football Iowa Hawkeyes Penn State Nittany Lions

  • Craig Dauman

    If it isn’t Walmart it’s Hyvee.

    • Tim Tolley

      It must always be one or the other. Iowa doesn’t really do the “options” thing.

  • MaryAnn

    It’s Quad Cities, not Quad City. P.S. This is kind of funny. Nice effort. Go Hawks!

    • Tim Tolley

      Thanks Mary Ann! I couldn’t remember but I guess Quad City wouldn’t be a logical name!

  • PSUFan1234

    You should change your name to Tim Troll. And learn how to write…you’re terrible.

    • Tim Tolley

      I write these every week on this site, for the purpose of humoring the Penn State fans who visit. Trolling would be going to an Iowa site and making bad jokes behind a fake name.

  • auchy

    Your company arranged for you to spend a WEEK in Muscatine or the Quad Cities?! That seems like a pretty long business trip to me. Maybe you should’ve paid attention to your task there and learned something.

  • NittanyPussyCats

    At least in Iowa there is enough to do…rather @ Penn State there is only really so much to do before you just get bored and then start…well everybody knows what goes on there

  • Bend’emoverCats

    Hey dumbass…you went winless from Nov 22, 1997 until this year you idiot…you were the worst program during that span…you were never relevant. What the hell are you talking about?

    • AP

      The record books say one thing, but we all remember differently. Yes, we were actually in the national title race very recently. When, exactly, has Iowa been in contention for anything other than spoiler?

      • TimsADouche

        How about 2009 when we won the Orange Bowl??? Which makes your blurb about the Hawkeyes not mattering in 2009 when we beat you all the more stupid since we finished the season 7th.

      • Guest

        How about 2009??? When we won the Orange Bowl?

      • AP

        No, that’s not exactly being in contention for a national title. Iowa didn’t crack the top 10 until the end of the season, therefore they were never actually in contention. It was a good year, don’t get me wrong, they were just never in the national championship picture.

        • hawkPwnage

          Are you kidding me? Iowa was 9-0, ranked 4th in the BCS, on the cover of SI going into the game against Northwestern…

        • AP

          My bad, you are correct. 4th in the BCS, 6th in the coaches poll and 7th in the AP poll. I guess you can call that in the picture, especially since B1G teams not named Michigan or Ohio State are generally snubbed.

          • GookinHawk

            Wow, you look real good now, huh?

          • AP

            Let’s not get carried away… topping out at #6 in the polls as your shining moment isn’t exactly solidifying your case.

  • ProudToBeAHawk

    Muscatine has nothing to do with “The Quad Cities”, educate yourself before you attempt to take a stance. Arrogance at it’s finest as you criticize Hawkeye football history when your history sits behind bars…

    • AP

      Glad to see you’ve chosen to be the one to associate an entire school with one individual. Way to take the high road.

      • WIlliam Vonnegut

        High road? This blog post literally ends with “I hate Iowa”, yet you want others to take the high road?

        What is this I don’t even…..

        • AP

          The article isn’t meant to be taken seriously. It’s a weekly piece with 7 reasons to get excited about this week’s opponent. Read back on some of the other schools… Northwestern is the most comical. B1G teams are good schools with (mostly) classy fans and deep traditions. Often times, you need to dig deep to find a reason to root against them. I’m sure you could find a ton of things to poke fun at Penn State about (Penn State is in the middle of nowhere, Paterno was a figurehead for the past decade, finally getting with the times and adding names to their jerseys, etc), but I think we can all agree that the Sandusky thing is beyond poking fun. There’s no need to take a blogger’s weekly post personal, there just isn’t.

          • WIlliam Vonnegut

            Like I said before, I am not mad he was making fun of teh Hox, I am mad that it was done so poorly. The point of trolling is to make the other person mad, not to make yourself look like an idiot.

            Unless you’re new to the internet, I don’t believe for a second this was written as a “poke in the ribs” to Iowa fans. It is kind of insulting that you expect me to buy that. You don’t call Iowa towns “crapholes” unless you’re looking for bites.

            Good -bad job.

          • AP

            Well, I won’t defend the quality of the article, but the point definitely wasn’t to insult or troll, but rather have a little fun. Again, he does this every week. The site also has an “Evil Bill O’Brien” weekly article and Twitter account. Am I new to the internet? No, in fact I make my living on the web. Trust me, I’ve seen plenty of anti-Penn State articles recently with the sole purpose of riling people up to generate traffic and comments. This is meant for Penn State fans, not Iowa fans. I’m guessing another blog highlighted this one, because I haven’t seen an influx of opposing fans like this one.

          • Tim Tolley

            You’ll defend everything BUT the quality of the article? That hurts! haha Iowa fans wouldn’t have found this if not for losing their minds about our prediction roundtable. They started following me on Twitter and thus found the weekly Seven Reasons post.

          • AP

            Haha… poor wording on my part, Tim, not what I meant. I enjoy the articles. I’m pretty sure a monkey could’ve come up with 7 reasons for Illinois, but the Northwestern one must’ve been difficult.

  • Hawks24

    “Extracted” revenge? You lost credibility there (if not before). Learn to write well, and people will notice you in a positive light. I would hate to have your cynical, know-it-all attitude.




  • WIlliam Vonnegut

    Your work sent you to Muscatine, Iowa for a week? What business are you in, Gas Stations or Liquor Stores? The only conclusion I can surmise is that you either have a loser job or you’re the worst employee at your place of business, so they sent you there. Nothing important has even happened in Muscatine, and you trying to brag hard on how much better you are than the people of Muscatine only makes you worse.

    • Guynotfrommuscatine

      Actually Muscatine is home to several reputable businesses, including Musco Lighting and HNI Industries. The town has also been very good to the UofI, as it was (is?) the longtime home of Bandag, the company started by Roy Carver, as in “Carver Hawkeye Arena” and the Carver wing of the hospital, among other things.

  • TimsADouche

    Hayden Fry > Joe Paterno – if not in Football then in being a decent human being and not an enabler of pedophiles.

  • PSU fan

    2009 Iowa beats PSU 21-10, goes to the Orange Bowl, wins, and they still don’t matter? Haha right.. Idiot.

  • HH

    You hang your hat on a guy that condoned in the acts of pedafiles. Lol…you are an idiot. When you get to hell, tell JoePa hi for me. Thanks. HH

    • AP

      “you are an idiot”… says the guy who can’t even spell ‘pedophile’ correctly. Iowa has a lot of reasons to be proud… you, apparently, are not one of them.

  • ColdHardFacts

    #2 just reveals the deep problem with Penn State football and it’s fans. It amazes me anyone could label any coach more overrrated than JoePa. Penn State fans will continue to live in some world where they ignore the facts and riot to protest the firing of a monster.

    • AP

      Are we talking about on the field or off? On the field I don’t see how you could ever compare Fry to Paterno. Off the field is another story. Paterno stood for so many good things for so many years. In the end, he wasn’t what we thought he was, but let’s also not confuse him with Sandusky. It appears you’ve jumped on the Freeh bandwagon, so maybe this is falling on deaf ears, but while we definitely need to acknowledge what Paterno ultimately did wrong, let’s also not totally forget what he did right.

  • the_rapist

    I think Tim got diddled in the shower.

  • ColdHardFactsBro

    Deletes comments that makes too much sense and threatens his beloved football team and coach. Class act, Penn State.. Class act. It’s naive and misinformated articles and bloggers like this that force us to never let you forget..

    • Tim Tolley

      Have not deleted a single comment. Look around… does it seem like comments are edited?

  • Chris

    Iowa didn’t matter in 2008? Iowa beat South Carolina in the Outback Bowl 31-10. Penn State didn’t win a single game.
    Iowa didn’t matter in 2009? Iowa beat Georgia Tech in the Orange Bowl 24-14. Again, Penn State didn’t win a game.
    Iowa has won 8 of the last 10 meetings with PSU… actually 8 in a row if you consider those 2 wins were vacated. That alone should be enough of a reason to hate Iowa.
    And you may think Hayden Fry is overrated as a coach… but at least he’s not overrated as a human being… like Paterno.

    • AP

      Again, the record books may say “didn’t win a single game”, but let’s not pretend like that’s how history actually happened.

      • hawkPwnage

        Then let’s not pretend that PSU has been better than the Hawks over the last decade…

      • AP

        You guys definitely had the first half of the decade, but we’ve also been in the national title picture a couple of times in the second half. Head-to-head, you’ve killed us, but I think we’ve had the better decade overall.

        • GookinHawk

          That is sooooo arguable that I can’t believe you are even try to take a stance on it. They were pretty even and the head-to-head is good indicator of who was actually better in close matches. Even then, I’m not going to say the Hawkeyes were better the last decade. Don’t try to make yourself look better than a program that dominated you over a decade’s period.

          • AP

            Some coaches/programs just have it over others. Iowa has had our number for awhile. Even years where we were clearly the better team Iowa won. I’ve never denied that Iowa has kicked our ass the past decade… I’m just saying overall I think we’ve had the better run, albeit slightly. Let’s call it as it is: we’re both second tier B1G teams with flashes of brilliance that have fallen just short.

    • AP

      Also, I wouldn’t brag too loudly about a 9-4 season and a win in the Outback Bowl. Brag all you want about the Orange Bowl, that is well deserved and a great program accomplishment, but not the Outback Bowl.

      • Chris

        Not bragging about 9-4… although it was a spring board. Those 4 losses were by a COMBINED 12 points. Shonn Greene won the Doak Walker award as the nation’s best running back. That’s mattering a lot more than Penn State, who didn’t officially win a game and was harboring a child molester in their program in 2008.

        • AP

          If pretending that those years never happened makes you feel better, then by all means enjoy that we han’t won a game since 1997. If pretending that we “harbored” Sandusky helps you sleep at night, then that’s cool. If you actually want to take the time to talk about football and this weekend’s upcoming game… well that I can get on board with. Yes, we were rocked by the biggest scandal in sports. Want to know what else? Our community had a pedophile that went unreported by the leadership of our school. Laugh all you want about it, but this isn’t a joke to us and it isn’t strictly a football matter, either. Most of the other B1G fans have been very cool and supportive. I expected the same of Iowa fans.

          • Chris

            Maybe you shouldn’t sling mud if you don’t expect it back. And maybe you shouldn’t trash former coaches when your former coach was Joe Paterno. In fact maybe PSU fans should just not talk history at all for awhile. Unless they want to be reminded of their history. Because most of it is out there on the table now and everyone knows about it. Perhaps in your blog posts you should just stick to talking about this years football team and you might be safe…

          • AP

            Not exactly sure who’s slinging mud. The article? It’s a weekly piece that’s written about the current opponent that’s meant to be funny and not taken too seriously. My comments? I don’t think I’ve said anything too harsh or personal. If I have, then I apologize. Also, I’m not a writer/blogger. Bringing up the scandal is the easy way out of any discussion. If you want to throw it around like it’s nothing, then fine, but don’t expect the rest of what you say to be taken seriously. This is a B1G rivalry. I’m all for talking some trash about the game this Saturday or the history of the rivalry. That’s what fans do. I just expect more of fans/students/alumni of a school like Iowa than pedophile jokes or Paterno bashing.

  • Truth

    Never let Penn State fans, bloggers, and media forget..

  • WeOwnPennSt

    Ultimate irony – A Penn St. writer criticizing another teams choice of coach to “hang their hat on”

  • WIlliam Vonnegut

    Tim, do you know what the world literally means? I followed the link in #1 which claims to prove Hawkeye is a pest bird, and you link to a pest removal company in Toronto called Hawkeye? That’s your smoking gun? And you have the temerity to invoke logic in the next sentence? For as insulting as you have treated Iowans in this thread, did you really want to open with something that either exposes you as a liar or an idiot?

    To be honest, I’m not sure which one you are yet. However, as a troll blogger myself, I know that any attention is good attention, so, from the bottom of my heart; Good-Bad Job!

  • BigGrizz

    Nice try to get your team and fans motivated. Lord knows your Pussy Cats have not played well against our “Pests”. Your article got me motivated however. I’m sure it will do the same for the Hawks. Chalk up an L for the Kitty’s. Thanks for the assist.

  • HawkITom

    Tim, it’s unfortunate that you’re having to spend all your time this morning deleting posts from obnoxious Iowa fans. Likely keeping you from your daily workout.

  • PedoState


    • AP


  • TJ

    Uh, you really want to start knocking on past head coaches? PSU used to have a good reputation. Now, anytime the name comes up, the terms “child rape” and “cover up” pop into people’s heads. I would rather be an alum and fan of any school in the country other than PSU and maybe Auburn.

    • AP

      Thousands of faculty, tens of thousands of students and hundreds of thousands of alumni who had nothing to do with it and have represented the university admirably and you choose to associate the entire university with the scandal? I’m a PSU alum and proud.

  • ItsCalledStatistics

    Since Kirk Ferentz was hired at Iowa, PSU has been to 2 BCS bowls, coincidentally the same amount as Iowa. SInce Kirk was hired, PSU has a losing record against Iowa. Since Kirk was hired, Iowa has been to 10 bowl games. PSU? 8 bowls. Who is the little brother? Remember, it isnt 1986 anymore.

    • AP

      Kirk Ferentz is a hell of a coach and, by all accounts, a class act. I’d put him up there with Pat Fitzgerald as my favorite and most respected coaches in the conference. That said, I think this rivalry is only going to improve in the coming years. Both coaches are Belichek disciples and both aren’t going anywhere for awhile (I haven’t heard anything about Ferentz leaving… could be wrong). I think Penn State wins this weekend, I think Iowa has a chance to take a few over the next couple of years, but after that it’s on…


    Your right Tim, Iowa has a lot of problems. In fact, they have 99 problems but covering up child molestation isn’t one. I suppose you’ll delete this comment. You know, cover it up.

  • heydipshit

    Hey Tim, what are the chances of Penn State making a good bowl game this year?
    hmm, who doesn’t matter now?

  • A college football fan

    Wow.. You are talking about the worst program since 1997. 0 wins. There’s no reason for this. Your an idiot.

  • HawkMD


    I will apologize on behalf of Hawkeye Nation. As you have explained, and probably should have been obvious from the initial read, this is a weekly blog to playfully poke fun at your opposing school. You have clearly taken the high road with these responses. As you ask us not to judge you institution based upon the actions of one man, I ask you not to judge our institution and fan base upon the actions of these Hawk fans.

    I look forward to the game this week. I actually got a chuckle out of a couple of your points!

    *Iowa Grad*

    • AP

      Thank you, HawkMD, but no apology is necessary. I’m pretty confident in saying that Penn State nation has nothing but the highest regard for Iowa, it’s fans and the team. In fact, I’m surprised at how supportive B1G fans have been regarding the scandal. As I said in a previous comment, I think Iowa will be one of the better rivalries that we have in the coming years and this weekend’s game is a preview of that.

    • Tim Tolley

      Thanks Hawk, I always look forward to this game. Ferentz always has his team ready to play, unlike half the conference.

  • HawkMD

    Furthermore, it is good to keep some perspective on those that have commented. These are grown men that spend hours of their day on athletic message boards to vicariously live through athletics (of a school they may or may not have even gone to). And even better yet, they hide behind usernames while doing it. Now that is funny!

  • HawkMD

    Oh and I forgot:

    *Iowa Grad*

  • JK912

    First, you exact revenge, not extract…And a few things:

    “Iowa fans don’t believe in logic” Because of course a 31-6 PSU win is the only logical choice? Penn State MIGHT be the best offense Iowa has faced all year; Matt McGloin is certainly better than any QB they’ve faced to this point, but they’re no juggernaut. They still only average 3.5 yds per carry and 10.9 yds per catch, and heavily rely on one receiver for a 1/3 of their passing game. If Iowa can limit Robinson, PSU is going to struggle to reach double digits, let alone 31 points. The way these two teams play on offense, there may be more punts than points. There’s a good chance this game comes down to FGs. Iowa has one of the best kickers in the nation, PSU has Sam Ficken.

    “If losing to Central Michigan wasn’t enough to motivate this team, there’s nothing that I can do to help.” You say that like Iowa has gone on a losng binge since that game. Small sample size, but since that terrible loss Iowa has dominated Minnesota (tought task I know) and won on the road at MSU (which you for some reason dismiss because “It’s Sparty”…fine, I dismiss PSU’s win over Northwestern because they’re just Northwestern). Since the CMU loss, Iowa has looked much better, at least on defense.

    “Murray made just 6 of 9 field goals that year and was 32 of 62 on his career” You’re almost right. Daniel Murray was actually 32/45, not 62. But go ahead and add 17 misses to his career to make that kick in 2008 if that’ll make it seem like more of a fluke…

    “By losing to Iowa State, the perennial doormat of the Big 12, Iowa secured their spot as the worst football team in the worst football state in the country.” As an Iowa fan, I hate what I’m about to type, but Iowa State is a pretty solid team this season…also “worst football state”? Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusettes, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, the Dakotas, Rhode Island, Vermont and Wyoming are offended.

    And the “Iowa sucks cause there’s nothing to do there in the dead of winter”…Really? As opposed to the other midwestern states in the winter that are booming with things to do? Also, the Quad Cities are actually Davenport, IA, Bettendorf, IA, Rock Island, IL and East Moline, IL. Muscatine is not included. Sure “it’s still Iowa and Iowa sucks” you might think, and you’re entitled to, but it’s gaffes like that that make it appear you really don’t know what you’re talking about. And “craphole”? What are you 12?

    • AP

      Haha… thank you. An Iowa fan that actually refutes the points intelligently and discusses football in the same post.

      I think the tempo of this game will determine who wins. Penn State is going to try to make it a shootout, while Iowa is going to try to keep it a low scoring game, dictated by special teams. If Iowa gets their way and it does come down to the kickers and punters, we’re done. If, however, Penn State’s passing game is effective and we can put the ball in the end zone, I think this one goes to us. Weather will play a huge factor in this, as well. If the weather is crappy, then our air attack will suffer and we’ll need to rely on the ground game which, while vastly improved as of late, still has concerns. Maybe I’m just a homer, but I’m actually surprised that Iowa is the favorite, even if they are at home. With almost no passing game and being on your 23rd string back (we’re not far behind), I think Iowa really struggles to put up points against a really good Penn State defense.

    • Gerald

      I’m thinking the Moliners are not liking that you subbed in the East Moliners in their spot.

    • Tim Tolley


  • DSMhawk

    Yes, JK912, we get it. He was wrong on some things. It is a joke column. Take a breath and carry on with your day.

  • Ordinary

    in 2008 we may not have mattered, but Iowa did beat Penn State and was the only big ten team to win a bowl.

  • BillyBilly

    I feel better tomorrow than I will yesterday.

  • Joe Mcclanahan

    Stay classy Iowa fans, stay classy!!! Oh well.

  • F-UofI

    Ppl don’t know how to take a joke. Can’t wait til Saturday.Iowans…plz remove yourself from the pig/sheep u r being intimate with and tend to ur crops

  • Hawks2012

    As an Iowa fan and Iowa grad…you did a pretty good job of poking fun of us. Not the best “Iowa material” I’ve ever seen but nonetheless good. I’m glad you guys are surviving the scandal well and wish you well in the future beyond tomorrow. I think the team and your new coach are adjusting about as well as you could have asked. Good luck…beyond tomorrow

  • Dickweed

    Iowa sucks, love pedophiles everywhere.

  • Travis

    This is sad and in poor taste considering the position Penn State and its football team is in. I’m glad to see that this years Penn State football players are playing with alot of toughness and class this season. You, on the other hand, are representing your team in poor taste and should truly make an attempt to reevaluate what you say from a more mature viewpoint.

  • Amanda

    Apparently this is supposed to be some kind of a way to poke fun at the opposing school. I find it fairly offensive. And to be clear, I go to Iowa State. (Who, by the way is ranked #24) First, it’s the Quad Cities. And yes, they may be small by some people’s standards, but in Iowa, it’s a big town. Davenport alone has 100,000 people. Also, Muscatine isn’t one of them. It’s about 50 minutes south. Of course it was cold and windy in the winter. It’s the Midwest. You’re lucky it was above zero. Yes, Muscatine Iowa isn’t the most exciting place in the world. But to hate Iowa based on one town is like me saying I hate Tennessee because of the one McDonald’s I’ve been to there.